The six nations rugby has started again in earnest, and with that came a horrendous shift in the kitchen. Being a bar monkey, usually that means dealing with pissed up men from various parts of the world shouting at the top of their lungs about how much better their team is, but this shift was different. Instead of the black shirt and black jeans I donned chef whites and sweated my bollocks off with the the boys from upstairs making a hundred plus (it's a smallish place, believe me, that's good, and there are only four people cooking) meals and side dishes. This has resulted in me having more sympathy with the kitchen staff; the bar staff tend to ignore them a lot and thus mistakes happen and food stays in the lift longer than it should, and we get more impatient with them than we should, because now I know precisely how long each meal takes to make or prepare.
This gave me enough time to think about the important things in life, such as the issue of national pride. Where does it come from? Why is it such a huge deal to people? I have found that having been in both Wales and the US that these two peoples, despite being such huge polar opposites do share one common trait: They are insanely proud of where they come from.
Now don't get me wrong, I do suffer from the national pride disease myself. When I was in Vegas, I loved people telling me that they loved my British accent, and that I was so polite and well spoken. I'd ham it up a bit, obviously; "Well, it's just the way they bring us up; Stiff upper lip, tea in the afternoon and old fashioned chivalry!" and after I was done, some people thought I rode a horse on sumptuous grounds killing time until I had tea with the Queen again. But I don't get mortally offended if someone mistakes me as Welsh (and the Welsh will hamstring you if you ever accidentally call them English), and though it amuses me, being mistaken for Scottish or Irish doesn't make me mad. They're all in the same area, largely speak the same language and have their own histories and cultural diversity. But the Welsh, especially the Welsh have a huge chip on their shoulder regarding the English. This bad blood is a few hundred years old now, and the Welsh are not alone in their ancestral dislike; The Scottish and the Irish have their own reasons for hating the English. Take it for granted when I say it would require more space and time to explain it than I have here.
Now, even if I think it's pointless, I accept and understand why our three brothers in the British Isles don't like the English; We have a bit of a bad history. But that isn't who we are now. The most you could accuse us of nowadays is arrogance and a low level xenophobia, which is a trait all four nations of the British Isles share. It's a little like hating Germany for World War II. It was over sixty years ago, and a lot of the people who fought or were responsible for it are dead now. What's the point? No, if you're going to hate anyone, hate the current crop of Neo Nazi's springing up all over Europe, or hate the French because of their unshakeable superiority complex and very well hidden racism. Don't hate the English because we were bad a few hundred years ago and think we're snooty.
I know that those comments in Wales would certainly get me beaten up, but I'm not bothered. I'm half English, and Half Filipino. That actually entitles me to hate the whole world, because there are only twelve nations on Earth that haven't occupied the Philippines at some point. Even the Welsh aren't innocent of it. They had a colony on Luzon that kept local SLAVES. It doesn't get mentioned in Welsh, English or International History books or History articles because the Philippines isn't important enough, and the Welsh are strangely silent on that period of their history. Pot, kettle, black?
And, if you're going to talk about the question of national pride, leave the politics at the door of the stadium, Millennium or otherwise; Rugby's only a game. Just over twenty people get onto a pitch and chase a bag of air for eighty minutes and thump each other about. No one dies, no new laws get passed and apart from ground on the pitch, there is no territorial ambition. CHILL THE FUCK OUT! "That's for the last hundred years you English pricks!" Shall I call your Filipino slave boy to mop your brow for you Rhodri? No? Then sit down and enjoy the game. This is where getting a bit too het up about where you crawled out of your mother gets you:
http://www.bnp.org.uk/
Don't stay there too long. Your brain will rot.
7 comments:
As someone who describes themselves as half Filipino and (I’m assuming) proud. You would know a little about living under a occupational force. I admit I don’t know much about the history of the Philippines so I had to look up your reference to the colony in Luzon and failing to find any, I would like you to post a link to some information. Could I suggest though the Welsh presence in the Philippines would have been part of a British occupation (which isn’t a justification for anyone having a slave).
I have posted a couple of links for you to have a look at which may explain a little of the animosity felt in this country to the English.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capel_Celyn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_knot
I realise that they are from Wiki and a little lacking in depth but some research on your part using any popular search engine will go a long way to further your understanding of a very complex history.
I would also like to draw your attention to the English and British history in Ireland; I believe Bloody Sunday was in 1972 and the massacre at Croke Park was in 1920, that’s hardly ancient history.
I would however agree with you that rugby is only a game and those that put their national pride on the line every time the boys take to the field is a little silly. However, I would say that that probably has more to do with the competitive nature of humans.
One point on rugby fans; please don’t mistake banter between rugby supporters as anything other than good natured fun, we are nothing like football fans that need to be segregated at matches, we tease and gloat when we win and wouldn’t begrudge you the opportunity if the rolls where reversed.
I would like to finish by saying that I am not a nationalistic person and would prefer it if people wouldn’t refer to themselves as any specific nationality but just as people (I love a good bit of clichéd sentimentality). I do however take offence when people compare supporting your national sports team to the hate filled, racist rants of the BNP.
As I said in the post earlier, you WON'T find any references to Welsh colonialists keeping Filipino slaves either in Filipino history (no official history anyway; There are I'm sure written accounts somewhere, but certainly nothing linkable: It is worth remembering that as omniscient as the net is, it doesn't always prove to be the font of all knowledge) OR in Welsh history; understandably they are not proud of that chapter of their history so they keep it hidden. You won't find it in general history because the Philippines has never been important enough on the world stage (except in the 1700's, when we were a Portuguese naval outpost for trade between the Japanese and Chinese). I realise that this means you may have to take some of this information on trust, but if you can be arsed, travel to Luzon and make it obvious you're Welsh. See what happens. It won't be pretty.
And you're right; just because they were under a British flag, it doesn't make it any less a predominantly Welsh community keeping Filipino slaves... it's not enough of an excuse.
I don't need to look at the links you've posted; I do happen to live in Wales. I've been here for over five years, and anywhere I choose to live I endeavour to find out about that country's history, thank you. And with regards to Irish History, my stepmum is Irish. And even if she wasn't, it's very patronising of you to assume that I would start running my mouth off without knowing what I'm talking about. If you want to talk History of the british Isles, go right ahead, you're preaching to the converted, what with being half British and all.
And yes, you're right; The 70's isn't ancient history. But I think after thirty years or so, people have started to let it go a little. I mean, lets face it... we're not going to ask Germany to finish repaying its war debt to the allied nations as according to the treaty of Versailles now, are we? I would argue we've moved on a little.
Living in Cardiff and near enough the Millennium stadium, and having served customers both in the Millennium stadium and my current job, as far as I can tell, there is no demonstrable difference between rugby and football fans, and I've heard enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that there's a small minority of fans from both sports that act like animals. Rugby fans are not the shining beacons of good behaviour in the sporting arena as they are constantly held up to be. Headlines proclaiming official statistics about Rugby fans being better behaved are often loathe to reveal that maybe the rugby fans beat up five fewer people while pissed up than football fans did this month. And as soon as the global market for rugby starts to approach the global market for football, there is nothing to suggest that it won't match its sister sport for hooliganism and bad behaviour.
And I didn't compare supporting sports teams to the racist and hate filled rants of the BNP. I said this is what happens when you let your national pride get the better of you... the link is there to serve as a warning.
And I'm not particularly proud to be Filipino. Or English. Or British. Britain is where I have lived for predominantly most of my life, and the Philippines just happens to be where I crawled out of my mothers vagina. They're just places, and the sooner people stop attributing "good/bad" "my country's better than yours" dichotomies to patches of soil the better.
Finally, thank you for the opportunity for a reasoned discussion. They are rare on the net; A usual response to this type of post would be "U r ghey; Fucking English twat..." etc etc etc. You get the idea. Thanks for not being one of those guys.
I guess ill have to take your word for the Welsh led Slave Trade in Luzon.
However, the idea that people should “get over it” after an arbitrary number of years seems naive and laughable. I’m not saying Germans today should have to pay but to expect Jewish people to forgive and forget seems a little cold, especially seen as there are people alive today who suffered (directly or indirectly).
Your argument against Welsh people not being able to be upset with English people seems to be that they kept Slaves at some point in history (which seems to go against your idea of not drudging up the past to score points against someone else’s Nation). If we follow this through to its logical conclusion then no one would be held accountable for anything. For example, the Jewish population should have no right to gripe with the Germans because of the situation with Palestine in Gazza and the West Bank. Gandhi was wrong in his criticisms of the British Empire because the Mughals kept slaves themselves and here’s the kicker, Africans can complain about how Europeans enslaved them but if you look at the history of Africa, they were already enslaving each other, so they’ll get no sympathy from us. I could be here all day but I think we’ll end up going around in circles until we both get dizzy.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that Welsh people and Wales are better than any other country (unless they mean in a sporting context). I can only speculate that they are venting their frustration at having someone else’s culture forced on them, whether that was 10, 50 or 1000 years ago.
I would agree though that national pride can get a little out of control and when it does, many people suffer. Let’s not however mistake supporting your national sports team to extreme Nationalism. I can only speak for myself but; I regard supporting Wales as the same as supporting my local team, which is to say it’s a case of supporting those that are closest to me culturally and logistically.
On the point of rugby fans being as bad as football fans, I think the main difference between the two is that rugby fans don’t form groups whose sole objective is to fight with rival fans. Of course, you get violence after rugby matches (I think the difference between the two sports may be significantly more than five people being beaten up a month); my guess would be that most is down to the levels of alcohol consumed before and after the game. As for your anecdotal evidence, I think we can agree it‘s hardly reliable.
“with regards to Irish History, my stepmum is Irish. And even if she wasn't, it's very patronising of you to assume that I would start running my mouth off without knowing what I'm talking about”
That’s a fair point but I would suggest you’re guilty of the same thing; you seem to be making sweeping generalisations about rugby fans and Welsh people based on a few encounters.
Unfortunately, the reason you get the response you do is most English people dismiss Welsh criticisms without knowing any of the history... They only seem to be interested in how England fits into British history in most British schools.
On a bit of a side note, what are your thoughts on positive discrimination?
Once again, a well thought out and reasoned response. Thanks for taking the time out to do this. As I said before, it's rare on the net.
I no more expect the Welsh to just forgive and forget about the suppression of their culture and language than I expect the Jewish to forget the holocaust or the Irish to forget bloody Sunday, or Croke Park or any of Cromwell's stints in the country. Maybe I didn't do it all that eloquently, but what I was trying to do and was asking and have been asking for literally the entire time that I've been here is to put things into perspective. I probably didn't even need to go as far as the Welsh colonialists in Luzon. I could have pointed out out Cornwall; this was once its own county and Kingdom, and the English and Welsh fought wars on its borders to control the country. the idea these days is laughable; Cornwall as it's own country? But there are Cornish men and women whose blood still boils at the fact that their culture and language was suppressed by two nations. Yeah, we'd moved on a bit from those days, but I don't think anyone ever got put to death for speaking Welsh. They did for speaking Cornish. But as you said, we could quote example after example of local and world history for days on end, and I don't think the point would be any clearer.
In a round about way, I'm saying that national pride is a ridiculous concept, with no country being white as the driven snow, and I believe that this concept of "my country's better than yours" (which is all I've ever been able to gather from national pride, despite the protestations of celebrating culture, language etc)is a damaging one; this and religion have been some of the causes of major wars on international and twice global scales.
And I didn't start bringing politics to the rugby field. I have only noticed the Welsh do it. Being that Rugby's a pretty big deal in Wales, I've been to a good few matches, both small scale and six nations scale. The French, New Zealanders, and English don't seem to bring in old political grudges to the game. They bring old game rivalries to the game. That's fine. The Welsh however, always seem extremely bitter at even the concept of being beaten by the English, and would rather lose to Ireland or Scotland (we won't go into why, we're both fairly clued up on British isles history).
I'm not making sweeping generalizations about the Welsh based on encounters few and far between either. I also live and have lived with Welsh people, and am saturated by through consequence of living in Wales, Welsh media. The Welsh people that I have spoken to about the subject of national pride have themselves admitted that they have pretty big chip on their shoulder. BBC 1 and 2 Wales always seem to have an hour long special about a Welsh folk hero changing the course of history of either the British Isles or the world (one of the most insulting of which was the suggestion that it was in fact the Welsh that invented Krav Maga, the Israeli martial art, purely based on the fact that the Inventor Emi Lichtenstein spent two months in North Wales). Wales seems to believe that it has lots to prove. It doesn't. It needs to stop being angry and bitter about things that really aren't that important anymore, especially to your average 20-30 something welsh person. The national consciousness of Wales from what I've seen heard and experienced first hand, and that is a culture of resentment.
On a side note, the only difference between anecdotal evidence and official evidence is that a man from the government with a clipboard hasn't scribed it down. Anecdotal evidence ceases to be unreliable when the anecdotes all tell the same story and there are hundreds of them. Also, with regards to the bar industry, people vote with their feet. Having worked in bars the whole time I've been in Wales, I can tell you that on match days, None of the regulars are out. When you ask them why the next day, the answers is always the same; Fear of violence.
And I'm not concerned about the reactions I get from the Welsh or anyone else on the net. It's easy for people to be brave and slag you off when they don't have to do it to your face. And if ever I heard a sweeping generalisation, it's "..most english people dismiss welsh criticisms without knowing any of the history." I would argue that a large percentage of the voting population of England know a little bit more that you assume about Wales, especially seeing as it is in the corridors of Westminster that the Welsh Assembly budget is decided each year. If the tax money of the English is funding a government and a people, you'd better believe that the English will find out as much about the Welsh, because whatever else you can say about the English, we tend to be a stingy people.
And with regards to positive discrimination, I view it as I view all other forms of discrimination. Abhorrent. It is as abhorrent to me that someone has a better chance of getting a job because they have darker skin rather than the traditional role reversal, it is abhorrent to me that people are hired because they have a gender quota to fill rather than for their merits (and is equally insulting to those who have worked hard to be recognized for their merits, rather than for their penis, or lack of one), and if you mean about people being favoured in Wales because they are Welsh, then quite literally I would hope that that would be because being Welsh gives them an edge or extra qualification like the ability to speak Welsh. Otherwise, it's just as abhorrent as hiring someone because of the colour of their skin or their gender.
I think we agree on the pointless and dangerous nature of Nationalism however, I think that most of it is based on celebrating your own culture rather than “my country’s better than yours” and I guess that comes down to personal opinion.
On the point of Cornwall being its own country it may be laughable in an economical sense but they have just as much right to be a nation as anyone else or are you saying that you are stuck with the country that invaded last as long as it was long enough ago. I think the Basque population in France and Spain would disagree never mind the tribes in Africa.
Concerning Welsh people being the only nation to politicise rugby, did you see the Ireland England game last year and the furore kicked up about God Save the Queen being sung at Croke Park? To some the very idea that a non-GAA game being played there (I seem to remember some fans boycotting the match and Sinn Fein planning a protest outside the ground) was outrageous and insulting. The French and English games are considered more than sporting events as well, as I recently learned from experience. The point is sport and politics do and will always go hand in hand. The wining team will always use what’s at their disposal to twist the proverbial knife, whether that’s a better head to head record like Australia and England or claim to have beaten the oppressive master (see David and Goliath), the latter being the only option for Wales in recent years… this can be used in case of defeat as well.
The reason Wales love to beat England is that for most of our history that was the only thing we had. Today even though the political make up of Brittan has change, we are still considered part of England (I guess you could say it’s a bit of poor relation syndrome, a bit like Canada and the USA). The fact that in recent years we have been thoroughly embarrassed at our national sport by the English doesn’t help either. Maybe that is a source for the bitterness rather than any true hatred or nationalism, most of the older generation will probably tell you the rolls where reversed when we could count on beating you (English not Filipino).
Whenever this argument rears its head, English people (not all but the majority I have had the opportunity to debate this issue with) tend respond to the argument that British schools and media are England-centric with the fact that BBC Wales is biased to Welsh sport and culture… of course it is, it is BBC WALES after all, whereas the BBC is reserved for British based coverage and still manages to lean towards English based news and sport.
I asked about positive discrimination (generally not just in regard to Wales) because the majority of people in my experience seem to forget there position; “the past is the past so lets just forget it and get along” and are afraid to offend and tend to be in favour of positive discrimination because “they’ve suffered enough and we should do more to help”. It’s nice to see some consistency for a change.
Honestly, when you think about it, how stupid does the idea of sport and national pride going hand in hand seem? I had forgotten that icident in Croke Park (England vs Ireland)... 'cmon now, this was a rugby game, not England Vs Ireland, guns bombs and all... they weren't armies, they were sports teams. I think that people getting that het up about a game which as I said in my original blog post isn't going to alter the borders of your country, isn't (or at least shouldn't) going to result in casualties and fatalities, and in total honest truth, isn't going to be remembered. I mean I forgot about it, and I'm interested in the conflict and history between the two nations. BECAUSE ITS A GAME.
And true, there are probably other examples you can give me where other nations bring politics to games, rugby or otherwise. This is something I find PATHETIC. It's a game. Treat it like one, and take politics to where it belongs, like the Assembly, Westminster, or the voting booth. Maybe I picked on Wales for doing it because I've seen more examples of it. For that, I apologize, but that doesn't change the fact that they do it, and in my opinion, it's stupid.
And you're being a little naive if you believe national pride isn't to do with believing that your country or culture is better. They DO believe it's better, that's why it's celebrated so vigorously. If that's your thing, great! If you think your culture is better than the culture of the rest of the world, than that's ok. You go ahead and believe it, and I won't do a thing to stop it. It's when arrogance spills into racism that I get a little het up. Having lived in both England and Wales (I lived in the Midlands) I can say quite easily that the casual racism the Welsh display towards the English is something not repeated on the other side of the border. Maybe that's because we don't matter, maybe that's because you think we're so smug and have so much unjustified sense of self belief that we need to be, but the fact of the matter is, few people in England will ever turn around and say "the welsh are wankers." I have to be careful WHO I tell that I'm half English, because it usually sparks some argument I could without.
But I'm tired of arguing this blog post... I wish I hadn't written the fucking thing now. I olny really wanted to make a few points, which should be irrefutable now.
1) Politics on any pitch is fucking ridiculous.
2) It's been a few years. Let it go.
3) National pride gets damaging if you take it too far
4) What's up with national pride anyway? It's a patch of soil, and the people on it, are probably dicks in some form or other, or have been in some form or other, so quit it. Where you're from is not that important!
Finally, yeah, I'm never EVER going to agree to any form of discrimination, no matter what the justification. Meritocracy is my favourite word.
"Having lived in both England and Wales (I lived in the Midlands) I can say quite easily that the casual racism the Welsh display towards the English is something not repeated on the other side of the border.”
I’m not sure whether this is, a serious comment or a half thought typed in haste… I guess it doesn’t matter either way; it only goes to reinforce my assertion that English people can be dismissive without knowing certain facts (this may or may not be through any fault of their own).
Here are a few links to news reports for you to read, im sure you have heard of most of them:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1205551.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/4639736.stm
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article701727.ece
http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Media&F=1&id=6526
These are all prominent people in the British media, which brings us nicely to a certain Mr Clarkson (I have to admit that I do find him quite funny that is until he starts to discuss politics), a quote from Wiki:
“For three years he had his own chat show, Clarkson, on which he offended the Welsh by placing a 3D plastic map of Wales into a microwave oven and switching it on.”
It does go on to say that he really meant to put a map of Scotland in the microwave, are we going down the road that racism is OK as long as you make fun of a different nation out of necessity.
I also found a charming little nursery rhyme that certain English people like to sing on St David’s Day:
http://ingeb.org/songs/taffywas.html
Here’s a quote from a message board:
“There is one and only one yard stick. And that is English people proud and stout have to put up with a year of listening to vitriolic Welsh wankers harping on about all the "bad" that "we" did them”
I can’t believe he actually uses the words Welsh wankers, a little pedantic I know but it does illustrate my point well.
Of course none of this justifies anti-English sentiment in Wales (who threw the first slur is neither here nor there) but to say the vitriol is all in one direction seems a little misinformed at best and criminally delusional at worst.
I will try to be brief concerning your final points; I will address “Politics on any pitch is fucking ridiculous” first. This is of course true but the very nature of international matches (OED definition - noun 1 Brit. a game or contest between teams representing different countries. 2 a player who has taken part in such a contest.) will lead to history and politics being dragged up unless we get rid of them altogether. On that point if the hatred is as bad as you are saying how do you explain British and Irish fans get on so well on British and Irish Lions tours?
“It's been a few years. Let it go.”- is this irrefutable? I thought I had already showed that asking people to get over an event after a certain amount of time is unreasonable and has no logical base (that is to say; you think people should “get over it“ then go on to say Jewish people shouldn‘t be expected to forget the Holocaust).
“National pride gets damaging if you take it too far” - I guess that depends on how you view national pride. Personally, I define it as celebrating your cultural history, now nationalism (the militant assertion that one’s culture and country is better any other and national pride’s ugly sister) is very dangerous but to get to the latter usually takes more than supporting your national sports team.
I’ll leave it there because I agree this debate has run its course with only two contributors, so ill leave you with a friendly ffarwel (too cheesy? im almost ashamed to leave it in) until we disagree about something in future.
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